James Kim’s body found in Rogue River Wilderness.
The comments section has a lot more about this story.
James Kim is not alive. My sincere condolences go out to his wife and children. I know their safety was his top concern and he’d be so glad to know they made it out of the wilderness safely. Based on the best info I have today from a TV interview with the local pilot who found Kati and the kids it was James’ footprints down the road that he left on Saturday that initially alerted the pilot to the approximate location of the car. In my book, that was a heroic walk.I know the condolences, thoughts, and prayers of people all over the world are going out to the family of James Kim.
A lot of people are asking me a lot of questions here in the comments section and I’ll try to answer them when I know more. I’ve only had limited contact with some searchers and Scott, who worked very hard on a very noble effort to help coordinate information and many volunteers who were involved in the “unofficial” search. He was a close friend of the Kim’s and I think this must be a very difficult time for everybody closely involved with them. We should all hope to have such sincere and hard working friends, family, and rescue workers in the event of our own personal misfortune.
Oregonlive has a detailed account of the confusion surrounding the search effort.
KGW and Oregon Live have more coverage of the Kim Family story which has now captivated many people all over the world. However as local info comes in I’m alarmed by how it appears some big news places are misreporting important facts. Key story items to clarify 1) James Kim was dead when he was found. MSNBC initially suggested he was left overnight in the woods because searchers could not reach him. This is almost certainly false. 2) It remains unclear exactly when James died. Coroner suggests it was about two days which would have been Sunday night or Monday morning and probably before the ground search began. 3) The pilot that found Kati and Kids was a local resident who owned his own chopper and was not associated with the search directly. He stated on TV that he was very familiar with the area and felt for “the kids”.
Here is a link to a good series of images from another site showing the Rogue River area near Black Bar Lodge where the Kims were finally found but I understand ONLY FIRST IMAGE has correct car location. The initial reports of car location were wrong.
Another image showing the location and James’ walk - thanks Greg.
(I’ve removed an image I had here which did not have correct car location. For many days the correct location of the car and therefore the length of the walk by James Kim was reported incorrectly.)
The comments section has a lot more about this story. A LOT more!
tell us more !, please
I’ve been following this story for a week on your site, sir, and let me say that I’m grateful for the updates and information you have provided to a curious and worried onlooker from Michigan. I can only hope that the latest news is accurate, and I wish the best to the rescuers and all the members of the Kim family. I only regret that more resources weren’t utilized in the most likely places where Mr. Kim might have been.
Just heard and read James was found face down. They are attempting to retrieve him now. By the sounds of the trail of clothing, he may have suffered typical signs of severe hypothermia. My prayers are will his family and friends at this trying time. Many Blessings. Awaiting confirmation on news details….
The news looked better when I first posted (#2.) Never stop hoping, please be OK… Like everyone else, I will wait and hope.
He’s dead.
Man, I don’t like this, they keep saying ‘body’. I’ve been posting progress on my blog too.
Just got the news. How terrible…
I really hope all these reports are not true. I’d say wait till there is confirmation. I feel almost ill, like a member of my own family is gone
Although I did not hear them say he’s dead it was clear they thought he was and KGW reports he’s dead. I cannot imagine the pain the family must be going through right now, but I’m sure James would be so glad to know his family survived and are now safe.
RIP James. He saved his family; i’s too sad.
from official oregon state police website.
Update: Search for James Kim Ends; Searches Located Him Deceased -
How awful. Condolences to the Kim family.
I don’t want to call it until I hear from the news briefing. I’m not expecting much.
EnGadget are breaking with the news that he as sadly passed away.
OregonLive.com: More from The Oregonian
“After initially being euphoric at locating Kim, searchers determined that the missing Bay area father had died.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/newslogs/oregonian/index.ssf?/mtlogs/olive_oregonian_news/archives/2006_12.html#212414
thanks for summarizing and keeping the information flowing. Sad ending to an already tragic story.
on KTVU.com website, they have a clip from a reporter in a helicopter who broke the news of the body spotted. The quality of the audio is not so good, but it sounded like the body was floating face down in the water just above Black Rock Lodge.
So sad…
News Release from: Oregon State Police
UPDATE: SEARCH FOR JAMES KIM ENDS; SEARCHES LOCATED HIM DECEASED
Posted: December 6th, 2006 1:00 PM
Josephine County Undersheriff Brian Anderson confirmed Wednesday afternoon that the body of JAMES KIM was found by searchers deceased at approximately 12 noon. His body was found within the area of focus in the Big Windy Creek drainage.
The KIM family requests the media not attempt to contact them and to respect their privacy during this time.
No further information to release at this time.
Video of press conference here:
http://www.katu.com/news/4843751.html?video=YHI&t=a
Very sad.
With a heavy heart I send the family and friends my thoughts and prayers and a wish for healing.
I wish that this tragic event had never happend. Now that it has happend we can learn from it. Let’s not forget these lessons.
Ohhh…………
May James Rest In Peace.
He loved his family and he tried his best until the very end.
My heartfelt Sympathy to the Kim and Fleming families.
This is very sad news. James is a true hero and his family should be proud.
Can those of you in Oregon *please* put forth an effort to get that road closed during the winter and at night?
My husband and I have been saddened by this news. In July, 2005, we naively took the same road the Kim family did. Our college age son was with us and we were in a mid-size rental car (our first trip to Oregon). What we were told would be a short cut, took us 4 terrifying hours to maneuver with heavy rain threatening to fall on us. Tourists do not belong on this road. The turning back reflex is an odd one, it clicks off in some circumstances.
Our deepest sympathy to the families. And thank you for being sensitive in your reporting of this tragedy.
Sorry to hear he died. Have been wondering
how far the family car was away from the
more main road and how far away it was in
total miles from Grant’s Pass. What was the
elevation of the car? What is the elevation
of Grant’s Pass?
very sorry to hear this ending.
i can’t say i agree with the above poster that bear camp road should be closed at night. this is a wilderness forest road, and many thousands of miles of mountain forest road exist in the west. you can’t just close every road and hope something like this doesn’t happen. everyone please take your safety into your own hands and thoroughly research your driving routes, especially this time of year.
i know friends of the kims, and my heart goes out to them.
anybody…. any idea whether this news report accurate?
“…Searchers told NBC News that they located Kim on Tuesday and at one point they were able to make direct contact with him. They explored ways to lower a medic to the area, they said, but it was not immediately clear whether that attempt ultimately failed or was too late to save Kim. Rescuers frantically tried to work out ways to reach Kim in the impassable snow-jammed area over the next hours, Anderson said, but they couldn’t make it in time…”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16079394/
Joe; I am sure you are feeling regret you couldn’t arrange more emphasis on the Bear Camp option early on, I know I am because it occured to me as soon as I heard they were missing, but I didn’t settle on that as most likely till I had heard they were known to have eaten in Roseburg. We can regret ourselve to heck and gone and it won’t change the past. Please, can’t we do something to get people to stop using that route in bad weather?
Maybe this can be our way to make it up to the family that James’ legacy be that we do something to make sure no one else dies by making the mistake of taking that route in bad weather.
Amazing to read the reports on MSNBC about the searchers actually making direct contact with Kim at some point on Tuesday but could not get supplies or help to him. Looks like they just ran out of time. That had to be ultimately frustrating for the Sheriff and the searchers. I sure hope no one made an administrative decision not to fly - I am sure some of the chopper jocks would have gone in anyway.
Kip, #26: Just read the same story and I’m wondering the same thing. Maybe it coincides with a “flash” from the ground that someone in a chopper apparently saw earlier that day. I saw this mentioned in a story or two, but to my knowledge it hasn’t been followed up on.
Chuck, #24: I think the elevation of the car was 3000 ft.
Im wondering if this report is true:
http://www.ktvu.com/news/10436601/detail.html?treets=fran&tml=fran_break&ts=T&tmi=fran_break_1_02140212062006
The video had the helicopter pilot stating Kim was face down in the river just below black bar lodge.
If thats true, then he wasnt found in the windy creek drainage area right? He wouldve been closer to where you, Joe, suggested to search.
I’m skeptical they made contact yesterday but have not heard all the news yet. Waiting for our local reports at 5pm.
Yes the fog of news as it is breaking…amazing though how we all handle news now…it is more like a steady stream of information and mis-information until hopefully the accurate story bubbles to the surface.
Having made contact would explain the emotional response of the Sheriff knowing he was alive but they could not reach him in time…the whole situation is a shame. Tough time of the year for this family and friends now.
Throughout this tragic situation I have been struck by the irony that both James and Kati had in their possession a high-tech electronic device capable of line of sight communication over many miles. Why is there no device in existance that a helicopter or plane could use, flying a grid pattern, that could pick up pings from specific telephones when passing over and use that to hone in on. At 5,000 or 10,000 feet it should be capable of line of sight contact with many square miles at any given point, and should be able to cover hundreds if not thousands of square miles in a day. This would cover the entire area of possible routes between Roseburg and Gold Beach in a day or two. If their cell phone had been picked up Thursday or Friday this tragic situation would have had a much different ending.
Joe I know it must be very frustrating for you. You were on-target with your suggestions on where to search. I guess they never figured he would have made it that far.
I guess he was only 1/2 mile from Bear Lake Lodge…WOW
Just looked at that “drainage area” on Google Earth. It was an amazing, if dolorous, feat that Mr. Kim made it as far as he did. That looks like tough country, and it gets worse the closer one gets to the Rouge River. Up where he started, it probably looked like a reasonable way to get downstream; in a weakened and cold state I imagine he was committed by the time he started to wonder if this was a really good idea.
David, your suggestion re: SAR interface with a cellphone sounds like a good one. Especially since phones are increasingly able to squawk their lat/lon.
May James’ gallant spirit shine in his daughters he and Kati saved.
Here’s some info after tonight’s local news but as Glenn noted the fog of breaking news is prevailing right now on some of this stuff. I think by tomorrow morning we’ll have a much better sense of when and how he died.
The police, local news I watched, and ABC TV gave no indications they saw him alive or before today (Wed).
Cause of death and perhaps time of death will be reported by coroner tomorrow around 10am. Most seem to speculate it was hypothermia and I’m presuming it was on the first night out but have seen nothing to confirm that. One reporter (local) tonight said the searchers “could not get in front of him” which seemed very odd, as if he was alive and tracked but not fast enough. I do NOT think this was the case.
Tonight’s interview with the pilot who found them (a local living in that area with his own chopper) confirmed that he did in fact first see James footprints which led him to Kati waving the umbrella. He then radioed for the search choppers who were minutes away and it appears the search and rescue contacted their snow cats who were just a short distance away.
Tara and Glenn - No, I was wrong to think he probably made it out of the drainage and south on the river. He was found in the Windy Creek Drainage based on all reports I’ve seen. There is a “Big Windy Creek” and “Little Windy Creek” south of there and Black Bar is down Little Windy I think. It’s not clear to me if he probably could have seen Black Bar Lodge from where they found him. If so this is even more tragic.
Leslie - yes, it feels kind of weird to review the early posts on where they might be. I’m now planning to head over there in the spring to see about the route and signage and I think a lot of people will recommend some changes to the BLM and USFS to make the signs even more ominous. I don’t think they can close that road because it is used a lot by locals.
I think it is possible that he made that much distance in the first day. He had a mission - he knew he didn’t have a lot of time. The fact that he left the clothes and article in a pattern to me indicates he wasn’t planning on staying out in the woods. I think he was planning to get back to the car and just couldn’t connect the dots back up. Probably because he was blocked, etc…
Although it seems he had a pretty good sense of direction.
Another point there is a psychic (now hold on…don’t all jump on me about this) that predicted James was in serious trouble and that they needed to head up and not down to find him. Go up go up…to find James and he said they had to hurry. I read that info at some point on Monday.
This is a tough time of year for this and will be especially difficult for family and friends.
I’m saddened by how the events ended, but heartened too by the humanity that this tragedy has brought out in an online community that often seems obsessed with gadgets and gizmos and other inanimate, impersonal things.
It gives me hope that we, as strangers connected over vast distances via our computers (I’m in Canada), can come together as neighbors and a force for humanity. Although nothing came of it, the idea of volunteers scanning fresh satellite images in these situations is hopefully something that can be pushed forward for the next time. The idea of portable equipment to track cellphone signals is also great.
I have found it invaluable in these situations to have someone like you, joeduck, “on the ground” monitoring local media coverage and providing local insights. Local media are always more responsible and accurate in these situations because they know the people involved in the operations and are accountable after the national story fades away.
My heart goes out to the Kim family. They should know that James, Kati and those two little kids have touched the lives of many people and made us all just a little more human these last two weeks. I have a feeling good things will come from this for very many people in the future.
Mr. Duck, the Sheriff said Mr. Kim was found 1/2 mile up the crick — that’s back up in the gorge. There was a 500 foot high ridge between James and the river, so he probably had no way of knowing that he was close to the river. He had several more bad spots to get past, including at least one that looks like sheer rock down to the water.
If he entered the ravine at the cleared spot that looks likely from the GIS data, then he walked about 4 miles down the ravine. It looks like truly awful terrain. Motivated barely begins to describe the state of mind he must have attained.
Tommo - Hey my good pal, I know I could count on you if I get lost. Unfortunately I’m probably the guy who’d get us both lost up there.
Dominto - really nice comment, great optimism, and thanks.
Topo map of Big Windy Creek area located here -> http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=42.64665&lon=-123.74697&datum=nad83&u=7&layer=DRG&size=l&s=100
Sorry if this has been posted already.
Joe, thanks again for keeping us updated.
A forest ranger indicated that taking the turnoff to the BLM roads is a very easy mistake to make - they look very similar to Bear Creek Rd. He also indicated that there was supposed to be a gate blocking off that whole network of roads from Bear Creek Road over the winter, but that vandals had cut the chain or whatever and the gate was open. Adding to the problem, Bear Creek Road appears on some maps to be similar to 42 (both appearing as similar yellow secondary roads). It looks straighter and more direct than 42. A series of circumstances all leading to tragedy. That said he almost made it out, an amazing effort begun after a full week of exposure to the cold and without food. Some of the searchers said the only way down was to repeatedly cross the creek whenever one side was blocked by sheer cliff, trees or heavy brush. To get as far as he did under those conditions is nothing less than heroic.
[I wrote this while offline earlier today, with no news after the morning conference. When I returned here later to post my thoughts, I sadly learned that the search was over.]
[And I considered not posting this, because of the events of the day, but I feel that it is now appropriate to memorialize the ordeal that James endeavored.]
As I continue to hope for the best, I know that James must have been aware of the constant air activity overhead, from Monday afternoon till now (midday Wed.), and this would also give him hope, whatever his situation, that his family had been found and that help was on the way. Not just a single chopper, but many overflights scanning the drainage and canyons.
As one follows rivergrade down, this forest becomes steeper and visibility more impenetrable. Any clearings, or patches of clearcut forest from logging operations, are at the higher elevations, closer to the network of roads. If he has no way to signal rescuers (whistle, mirror, flare, or fire) and no plumes of smoke have been spotted, then retreating up the drainage would make more sense, realizing that he could be visually spotted in a clearing. Although he had two lighters, he may have used them up for warmth, signaling, navigation in the dark, or there may not have been any dry tinder near the creek bed to start a larger fire.
Looking at maps of the network of logging roads in the area, one realizes why these linked turns are often called “switchbacks”. Up, down, and compass directions are not useful in this winding maze. After the snowfall on Saturday night, their tire tracks would have been covered. A route down may be a deadend logging “spur” road. And going uphill may be the way out. Each season, new clearcuts and logging roads may be added, often unsigned later in the year. Truck drivers and firewood cutters stop at the district USFS ranger stations to get crude updated maps. Without these, and in the dark and snow, navigation can be difficult.
Where the car was found, is only about a third of the way into this rugged backcountry. Without the luxury of online maps of their predicament, the Kims must have thought that they had made more westward progress than they did. James had 7 days to ponder this and make a decision on which direction to commit. With no sign of rescue activity after a week, few supplies and no source of heat, he may have felt that staying with the car was no longer an option.
The Ashland family stranded earlier this year in a similar situation, but inside a well-stocked RV, was rescued after 2 weeks, when some of them hiked out along roads for help.
If James had only a road map, there would be no topographic features shown to reveal the hazards of a deepening Big Windy Creek drainage. Sat. morning at 7:45 am is just after sunrise in this part of the state, and he was ready to go. [Evidently, he and Kati discussed his planned trip out, in depth, the night before. She may have relayed this to SAR, about the drainage he would follow.]
With luggage and clothing for the family’s weeklong trip, James would have a choice of extra clothing to take along, and hopefully has a few more dry items in backpack. The socks and t-shirt could be used as gloves/scarf/hat, especially if not cotton. It has been speculated that discarding clothing is not a hopeful sign in exposure conditions, but abandoning extra, wet cotton items as trail markers is smart. Finding a coat, or sweater or shoes would be worrisome.
About weather. Dry weather here in winter means cold, clear nights, with minimal cloud cover and wind, and often foggy mornings before sun appears. Approaching frontal systems (maybe by Friday/Sat) bring warmer southwest winds and moisture from the ocean. Normally, temperature will decrease 3 degrees for every 1000 feet of elevation gain, but in this forest drainage, the lower elevations are actually colder. Cold air, like water, will sink down to find the lowest terrain, draining off the higher snowy slopes. The forecasted low for the Willamette Valley on Tuesday night was 26 degrees. The creeks will keep running unless it gets really cold, but there can be ice on the canyon walls and creek boulders. For shelter, a cave or burrow in the earth above the bottom of ravines, covered by boughs would protect against the cold, if clothes are still dry. To keep the core body temperature up, a source of heat is needed – fire, food, or muscular exertion by either moving around or shivering. There may be some uncertain berries, pine nuts, or greens to forage, with poison oak to avoid. Water is abundant, but cold snow or river melt will chill the body.
My earlier comment about the first searchers getting soaked in the Big Windy Creek looking for tracks was incorrect. They had to continually cross/wade the creek just to make progress downstream. James would have had to do likewise, getting coat, jeans and shoes soaked.
About the volunteer SAR effort. After the family was found Monday afternoon, Eugene Mountain Rescue headed to the area and left the trailhead at 10pm. After many hours of slow searching in the dark with lights, they bivouacked on bare ground at 4am. They put on all layers of clothing they had, covered by rain gear, and slept till dawn, when they continued to search until noon. Then they were relieved by other teams for the next shift. In 12 hours of searching along the drainage, they covered only 1500 km. (less than a mile.) These are trained rescue climbers, with adequate provisions and in top shape, who did not spend the previous week stranded with little food in an unheated car.
The personal clothing item retrieved by heli with lowered cable was in an area so steep that trained SAR with technical gear could not grab it. I think that this may have been the reason that the search yesterday (Tues) was concentrated within the 5 mile area. Their reasoning could have been that if SAR could not make progress, James also would be hindered by this steep canyon. [Later this effort was called “superhuman”, to have moved along so far, without proper gear, clothing, skills, and with diminished physical energy.] [When the search ended, the team of searchers was only ¼ mile upstream – that is merely once around a running track..] These sheer canyon walls have been eroded smooth by thousands of years of constant erosion by rushing water and rock, and difficult to climb. James’ final location was in such a site, with no easy route down, and no strength to retreat back to the car.
————————
James’ valiant and determined last efforts over many days, to find help for his beloved family, will always be remembered.
May his family and friends take comfort and gain strength from this.
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=currentEvents&Number=709306&Searchpage=1&Main=709179&Words=james+kim&topic=&Search=true#Post709306
One can easily see a 3-D view of the terrain, creek, and river area where Mr. Kim was found (if you have Google Earth). I don’t understand comments by undersheriff that rescuers had trouble going from the river up the creek. i don’t see any cliffs blocking the way.
for Google Earth, download this
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=709179
Allen, I hope you send to the Kim family your thoughts about James’ inspiring effort to find help for his family. I am sure they are overwhelmed by grief but there will be a time in the future when they will reflect on everything, and I think that would give them some comfort. You could probably send it to the website set up by friends or to CNET.
I’m at a loss of words over this news. I wish so badly that it would have turned out differently.
I only know James through his reports at CNET, but I can tell that he put out into the world a kind of positive, warming and calming energy. You can just feel it. I hope that all those who have had the privledge to have been touched by James’s energy can honor and cherish it and spread this same kind of energy around in their own lives.
Thanks, David, for this idea. I’ll add these edited comments from my earlier post, included below for continuity.
————————-
When leaving the car, I think that James’ real intention was to go for help, whatever lay ahead. Returning to the car with nothing accomplished and the uncertainty of more waiting was not a move forward. I believe that the 1pm return deadline on Saturday was meant to avoid objections, debate with family and a difficult goodbye.
What at first seemed just a matter of following James’ tracks down a drainage, has become more and more complex. Once committed to a steepening drop-off, he had to go forward, with increasing risks. Terrain was so rough that snow-machines, horses and dogs could not pursue.
I would expect that the going would be slow, more bushwhacking than hiking, without a passable trail to follow. Lots of ups and downs through brush, over fallen trees, boulders, pushing branches aside, slippery canyon walls, and wading across the creek.
Reports of a backpack were ambiguous, but I think that any remaining food provisions would have been left at the car for the family. One can exist without food for many days, but it is needed for energy, strength and body heat.
And strength is a real factor now, in a weakened condition from no sustenance, facing this journey which would be challenging in the best of situations. Tonight (Tues) will be the 4th night of exposure in sub-freezing temps, possibly without shelter.
During the search it was too easy to speculate from afar how things should go, but I know that all of us greatly appreciate the determined efforts that SAR agencies and volunteers have devoted to this.
Keep hoping for the best.
Replying to the comment that the terrain was too steep to go up, Google Earth doesn’t replicate the scale, or what you experience when you are on the ground. Still, you can tell how steep the canyon walls are. A There is no bank on the creek to walk up the creek on and you can tell that the slopes of the canyon are steeper than 100% in grade (meaning that you climb more than 1 vertical foot for each horizontal foot of travel. There isn’t solid footing, there is downed timber all over the place and the trees are massive. This just isn’t terrain suitable to bipedal motion
Do you notice how none of the logging roads make their way down that canyon? There is a reason for that. The terrain is too steep to log cut the timber.
I think the picture linked below shows best what the terrain is really like. James walked most of the way down to the river. (not as close as the KMZ file makes it appear, he was 1/2 mile from the Rogue River)I’m amazed at this. There is NO bank by the stream, you have super steep canyon wall on both sides and a creek running down it. There is no way to get up the canyon besides walking up the stream.
http://www.craigwalker.net/images/news/P1010027.JPG
Hi everybody. I just watched the press conference video:
http://www.katu.com/news/local/4847371.html?video=pop&t=a
Careful inspection of the map shown in the video reveals that what we have thought about the location of the Kim’s car was wrong. According to the map in the press conference the car was actually located just half a mile from the river! James hiked about five miles away from the river by road and then back almost to the river again in the creek bottom. Here is a link to a Google Earth map showing where the Sheriff Dept’s says they found the Kim’s car, the pants, another article of clothing, and James’ body:
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=709281
What a disapointing end to the story. I wish he could have survived to tell us about his ordeal. RIP James.
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Hi,
Thanks dc & Spenser for the KMZ and picture\description of the area. I am from the UK and have just picked up on this news while surfing the web. It’s pretty rare in the UK for this kind of thing to happen as we are a relatively small country with people living all over the place. Looking at how remote this area is gives an eyeopener to how big the USA is and how remote some of the areas are. I take my hat off to James who gave it his all to get help for his family.
Joe,
thank you for all your reports…I was hanging onto them for several days, but I had a question;
What made you write in your headline, when James was first found: ‘James found-ALIVE !’….you made me feel like I had just kicked a winning 50-yard field goal in the Super Bowl…then all of a sudden, you changed the headline to say ‘unknown condition’ (flag on the play, waiting for review)…then the final word: James is dead (flag on offense, time expired)
I went from an amazing high (yelling ‘yes’ at the top of my lungs inside my cubicle)…to crying outside of our office building within 15 minutes.
What made you write ‘alive’ ?…was that one of the first reports to come in ?
Again, I want to thank you for all your heads up the last couple of days, I really had appreciated it.
Also, any truth to the report on msnbc that recuers had made contact with James on Tuesday ?
Thank you,
Very much hurting in San Fransciso,
Kim
Hi Kim,
During the fog of the news period…a lot was speculated by newscasters and I think we all wanted to think the best. On MSNBC they reported that searchers had direct contact with James hours before they found him. That may relate to a story about a hot spot being recorded on a FLIR copter run on a previous night. The searchers explored the hotspot area and found several items from James left in a pattern to indicate where we was heading.
They also reported seeing a flash of some sort a short time before they found him…that fuels speculation that he was signaling.
So who knows…once I heard the recording from a news reporter in the copter above the recovery site I knew he was gone - the reporter stated James was face down in the water. It was hard to hear his words exactly, I had to listen several times before I pieced it together.
We all wanted a different outcome and so many were cheering for James. The Kim family is fortunate to have people like that spend their time and resources to help. Joe did a great job summarizing what was going on and he also provided what I thought was good advice on where to look for James.
And I too…wanted to believe the “alive” headline but it wasn’t so…similar to the immediate news flow when the miners perished…
Glenn I agree that it was a misunderstanding by the MSNBC reporter and NOT that they really found him alive, though we’ll know more from the autopsy today. Obviously if he was alive after the search began on Monday there will be even more pain for the search teams and questions about the rescue efforts.
I don’t think it’s appropriate right now to speculate too much about how search and rescue approached this but I’d have to say, based on the fact that a local pilot found the car after over a week of organized search efforts, that SAR in general does not appear to quickly incorporate the wealth of local knowledge and pool of volunteers that is available in cases like this. I’m assuming this is because in past cases and in studies of SAR theory the volunteers and local info get in the way of the rescue more than help with it.
Kim I cannot apologize enough for that horrible mistake and I didn’t realize until now that that was even read before I corrected it a few minutes later. But that’s no excuse - I should never have tried to post so fast on something this important to so many people. Like everybody I was hoping so much he was alive and when I first heard he’d been found I think it did not even occur to me he might not have made it. Complicating things was that I could not verify the first info I saw from Oregonlive (The Oregonian Newspaper’s website) anywhere else. I tried to fix that post within minutes but a huge number of people were reading at that time. Really, really sorry to put you throught that.
Joe, I want to join a lot of other people and thank you for keeping all of us out here updated so quickly on the events of the past several days. Having your updates helped those of us so far away feel like we were there pulling for him. I am devastated that James didn’t make it, I can’t imagine what his family is going through. They remain in my thoughts and prayers. James will remain a hero in my heart and the hearts of others. Thank you again so much!
Bottom line…if I had a family member missing I would employ any and all resources that I had at my disposal to find them…I give the Kim’s a lot of credit. It is my understanding in cases like this typically law enforcements tells the family to sit and wait we have it under control.
I give the JC Sheriff credit for allowing the Kim’s to utilize their resources to bring in outside professional help. I think it is important to note that many Chopper jocks have vast experience in all kinds of situations and probably more years on the job then the current pilots at SAR’s disposal. Again I want to make it clear I am not trying to slight SAR here…just that their are some very experienced CIV people and resources that should be tapped more often then they are.
After all the end game is life or death.
Glenn - yes, but ironic is that the local reports and an interview with the pilot who found them state that he was acting on his own. He was not part of official Search and Rescue and he was not part of the paid search efforts.
I agree on not knocking a valiant SAR effort here. However from a theoretical point of view I’m wondering if you could use some form of online information organization (maybe just a forum) to informally analyze a lot more information than otherwise. This case was unusual in that millions were watching and I’m guessing at least a thousand people would have volunteered to analyze data (such as the Satellite mapping info). In other cases the interest level might not make this approach worthwhile though I think there is room here for an online environment that would process the “wisdom of the crowd”, especially local insight such as that of the chopper pilot who found them.
As Dan says, the coordinates of the car reported earlier (Tuesday, Wednesday) were the wrong coordinates. The coordinates that Joe posted on Thursday morning are the correct ones. Video footage shows that the car was parked at an intersection, which matches the latest coordinates [that put the car at an intersection].
One of the roads at that intersection is the access road to Black Bar Lodge. As fate would have it, James took the wrong road (and then made the fatal decision to hike down the canyon). Had he taken the access road to the Black Bar Lodge, he would have come across Black Bar Lodge within 1.75 miles (a walk of a mere 40 minutes), could have broken a window and would have found shelter for his family.
Google Earth shows that James Kim walked on the road for 4 miles (contradicting previously reported “2 miles” and “3 miles”
and the hike in the canyon was a 6 mile hike, for a total of 10 miles, not merely “8 miles” as reported in the media.
I assume Bear Creek road was completely covered with snow? Does anyone know how far they made it over snow-covered roads before getting stuck?
I am sharing similar thoughts with you Joe. Being a chiphead myself I feel compelled to try something. Maybe we can create KimSAT - Search Area Tatics engine that compiles the insight and efforts of the many to save one.
I was really glad to hear Edge stepped up…so critical that kind of data.
I didn’t know that about the pilot but just confirms my beliefs even more. I think there should always be a strong private sector response to these situations.
It still baffles me why they didn’t search from both ends…including teams from either side of where he entered the ravine.
Interesting comments from Greg…thanks for the analysis.
Fred I heard it was like 15 miles…they came to a fork in the road. One sign said deep snow ahead so they choose the other router (to the right I believe) and then got stuck and was actually able to get the car unstuck and turn around but decided to wait it out because they were low on gas.
Here’s what the helicopter pilot said:
“When I heard the family was lost, immediately I had a pretty good idea where they were,” Rachor, a helicopter pilot for 10 years, said Wednesday. “It’s real easy to take a wrong turn where they did. A lot of people make that mistake.’”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/07/MNGTMMQVKE1.DTL
It even looks like the ‘correct’ way to go from above in Google Maps. If there are any signs at this fork, they should clearly state that the BLM is not a detour. Even a ‘no outlet’ sign on BLM would do.
And a simple sign at the intersection the car was found at saying ‘Black Bar Lodge ->’ would help.
to add: Google Maps, in its directions from Merlin to Gold Beach, makes a point to note ‘Continue on NF-23 - go 24.3 mi’ at this fork.
I hope I am not posting this twice by accident…but, I think the marketing and advertising of vehicles with AWD and 4WD needs to be addressed in this country.
The advertisements usually show these cars and SUV’s out in some pretty rough conditions, many times going fast with a little tiny disclaimer that the bottom that reads “professional driver.” That disclaimer doesn’t cut it. People buy these vehicles—and I drive a Subaru Outback, btw–with a very, very false sense of security of that type of traction.
I wonder if the Kims would have started up that road–or turned around faster if they were in a regular front wheel drive station wagon? Of course there is no way of knowing this–
I think there needs to be a whole like of critiscism in the press—for the DOT for NOT closing that road off of I-5 the second it is SUPPOSED to snow—or put up guardrails and maintain the heck out of it, including regular patrols-
For the car manufacturs that insist on false advertising of their vehicles-
And for mapping companies that fail to mark roads that are potentially dangerous.
The Kims did NOT do one thing here that regular other folks wouldn’t have done–as far as I am concerned, that family should get a medal for keeping those children not just alive but, healthy–
But, we need to correct some serious mistakes–starting with the ones above, imo.
A question for those in the know. All the reports keep saying “Bear Camp Rd” as the “shortcut” they were trying to take. On Google Maps, the main road across is shown as NF-23, changing into NF-33 near Agness. Google maps also shows a “Bear Camp Rd” at 42.574858,-123.750129; which is where a BLM road forks off of NF-23.
So is the Google Maps NF-23 the real Bear Camp Rd? And the Google Map indication of Bear Camp Rd incorrect?
Certainly it was their intent to take the main road (shown in Google as NF-23) all the way across, right? And then at some point and for some reason they ended up on the network of BLM roads where the car was found?
I can’t believe they were that close to that lodge. Heart-breaking.
So many questions. From that intersection they had 3 directions to walk on a “road” (assuming the access road to the lodge even looked like a road). Why not try each direction for a few hours each day, and then back to the car? Would the weather have prevented that? Would the snow cover have prevented that?
Thanks for the info and answers.
Greg, your post is heartbreaking.
Certainly from this route drawn it appears he travelled a hell of a distance.
Hmm, here’s what I was trying to post:
http://www.layoutscene.com/james-kim-path/index.html
RodneyG, it’s my understanding that the ‘main’ road in this area, N-23, is called “Bear Camp Road” and the indication on Google Maps of the the BLM road being called that is indeed incorrect.
Check out this (PDF) map:
http://www.oregonlive.com/cgi-bin/prxy/accessor/nph-repository-cache.cgi/base/pdf_captions/1165463705207380.pdf
Joe (and everyone else who has participated here in one form or another),
I just wanted to take a moment to offer my sincere thanks for what you’ve done here. Your concern, insight, and respect were very helpful and much appreciated (by many more than just myself). Quite fitting for a man as kind and loving as James.
Thank you.
Google Maps/Google Earth appears to be in error with the name. Bear Camp Road is the common name for FS23 from Agness to Galice - the spur at the coordinates you mentioned may be a detour around a landslide that happened in 2005. Either way, there is a LOT of incorrect road data on all of the online map services in Southern Oregon.
Seeing where he ended up and the fact that the car was literally next to the road leading to the lodge, wow. This really goes a long way towards the importance of signage, especially in dangerous areas such as this. James and Kati had no way of knowing they were only a short hike up that road to the lodge, and potential refuge, and that is the real tragedy in my eyes. Certainly, I am not trying to place the onus to the owners of the lodge.
My heart truly goes out to Kati, Penelope and Sabine, as well as their family, friends and coworkers. Times such as this are when you find out what people are willing to do for loved ones. James was not only one of the best in his field of work, he was apparantly also the best as a father and husband for such an act of bravery and selflessness.
People will likely say in the days ahead, as they already have, that he made mistakes, but I say that he made the best use of the knowledge he had on hand. Not everyone has grown up near mountainous areas and had the experience necessary to make the “appropriate” decisions in the face of such a situation. James was a true hero in every way.
-Jeff
The images in Google Maps can be quite old (the one of my house is from 2000) so it’s quite likely the N23/BLM fork looks quite different now. I wonder if that satellite company will release their images anyway?
Perhaps j&w can add the Google Earth image of this location to his set of pics?
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&saddr=Merlin,+OR+97532&daddr=Gold+Beach,+OR+97444&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.284089,82.265625&ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=42.575332,-123.750086&spn=0.002583,0.005021&t=k&om=1
ack, sorry about the long URL
try this:
http://tinyurl.com/yemzlc
(and those are excellent images, j&w)
Jeff, I don’t think anyone who is familiar with the area will ever criticize the decisions. Some of the decisions are a bit baffling, but we weren’t there.
I agree that signage would have solved this, but these are very minor roads. Bear Camp Rd has some limited signage, but the unpaved side roads are logging roads and will have no signs. The BLM and Forest service are the two biggest road builders in the world - the Forest Service has more miles of road than any other country in the world has total! The roads weren’t built with public use in mind - they were built solely to get logging trucks in and out of the logging areas. It’s an unfortunate side effect that people so easily get lost.
I can’t help thinking that incompetence in the leadership and coordination of the rescue effort was a contributing reason for its tragic outcome.
I am wondering, for instance, why didn’t they scour the maize of back roads with a fleet of snowmobiles last week when there was a good snow base on the roads? could have covered a huge area, fast, effectively, and relatively inexpensively.
Isn’t it ironic that with all the great technology available now, most of us who wanted to know were miles off pinpointing the location of the stuck car and the spot where James left the road.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I can’t find the words that adequately express the admiration and love I feel for James - an incredible human being who died truly heroically.
Incompetence was NOT an issue, you can point the blame at lack of resources maybe, Josephine County is one of the poorest counties in the country but the search effort was as focussed as possible and the people participating were the best to do the job.
Realize, that until Monday, no one knew they were up Bear Camp, the common thought was that they were much farther north.
Tim - thanks for that nice comment. Like everybody I really got emotionally wrapped up in this story both because it was unfolding in territory I knew and with a family that reminded me of … my own. It’s really been nice to see how caring everybody has been. It didn’t have a storybook ending but if those kids had died up there it would have been almost unbearable.
RodneyG - [updated - see comment below] I’m looking at Google maps now and I don’t think they are wrong on the technical coordinates which show the route as a BLM Road, then NF 23 (I think US Forest Service Road), then NF 33. Note that for TuTuTun Lodge on the River I think you’d normally turn off of NF33 at Lobster Creek Bridge over the Rogue and hit North Bank Road rather than go into Gold Beach. Locally it’s common to say “Bear Camp” in general reference to that particular route from Merlin to Galice to Agness to Gold Beach. The route involves several differently named roads and some that I think have more than one name. Galice Road, turnoff just before Galice Resort to the stretch over to Agness, then down to Gold Beach.
I think it’s Oregon Live that is suggesting they intentionally turned off the Bear Camp Road onto a logging road and then kept going for some 15 miles. Perhaps they were trying to find the river, not knowing that in that Wild Section of the Rogue there is no Road along the Rogue as there is both from Merlin to Galice and down at TuTuTun where there are roads on both banks of the Rogue for many miles.
Wow, I did not understand what RodneyG’s meant until I looked here:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Galice,+OR&ie=UTF8&z=15&ll=42.576691,-123.746481&spn=0.014284,0.043259&om=1
[At first I wrongly thought this was not a clearly confusing item but it is and is listed as Bear Camp Road. Although the Kim’s are not thought to have used Google or online mapping (they used a state printed map according to police interview with Kati), Kati did tell police they were confused about the route. I don’t know the signage at this area here but would sure like to see it.
If you look at page 6 of the layoutscene site you can start to see why James may have left the road…looks like he was trying to make a straight line to save time.
Joe, if you zoom way in on the map view, you see that the fork is labeled Bear Camp, and then a little tiny piece back to NF-23 is also labeled Bear Camp. A commenter after me suggested that perhaps this is a little detour around a landslide from last year. That seems to make a lot of sense. As in, NF-23/Bear Camp got blocked just north of the fork, so maybe the new traffic pattern was to actually take the BLM road for a tiny way, then jog back over to the main road.
Anyway, regardless, everything I’m reading suggests this is where they left NF-23 and then travelled the “15 miles” on BLM roads. (Another route from NF-23 to the spot of the car is at 42.614507,-123.808794, which is much closer to where the car was found. But I don’t think it is as likely.)
The interview with the pilot makes it sound like it is very common for travellers to take the BLM at the original fork we are talking about. The satellite image clearly shows that the BLM road looks wider, and as the pilot said, it looks more like the correct road than the correct road does. It looks like it would be *very* easy to follow that BLM road at that fork.
Finally, from all I’ve read, I’m not sure if they took the fork to the BLM road by accident, or if it was on purpose. Regardless, the pilot interview makes it sound like much of the searching was going on elsewhere, but he was pretty sure they would be up there between NF-23 and the river.
Thanks again to everyone for all the info.
Here is a bit of video that I shot of the BC fork last Monday afternoon for thoses of you that don’t know what it looks like.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2083162403303862037
Thanks again Joeduck for keeping this going.
RodneyG - excellent info, thanks. I just listened to the Oregonlive.com video http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/video/index.ssf?LC_51MISN107
which suggested they intentionally left “Bear Camp Road” to go below snow line but I got the idea the reporter may not have had all the facts. He wrongly reports that most maps say the Bear Camp route is impassable in winter. I’m not sure any but a few newer maps note this fact, partly because the main road is used by some locals all winter, mostly to go hunting in that area.
Thanks Joe Dully - that really helps people get a feel for the territory up there. But is this where you turn off Galice Road and head up to Bear Camp Road by turning LEFT, or is it ON NF23 aka Bear Camp Road?
Live feed of news conference:
http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=57406&live=yes
A news conference is going on right now regarding results of Autopsy and other search details:
James Kim died of exposure / hypothermia. No other signs of injury. Appears he was found fully clothed, face up in a shallow water stretch of Big Windy Creek. Time of death is not known.
Police interviews with Kati suggested the following:
They used a fairly new Oregon State map to plan the route.
They did NOT use online services or GPS to plan the route. They intended to take 42 but missed it and then chose the Merlin to Gold Beach route [there is an exit at I-5 at Merlin and I assume they took that one].
Police say there was a warning “box?” on the map about this route.
They travelled west on Bear Camp Road, were confused about correct route, and tried to backtrack. Not clear when they got off on the wrong road. [though I think the accounts above suggest it was an easy mistake to make so this needs follow up] Snow and rain made visibility bad.
2am Sunday they stopped car at fork in road. Monday snowed all day.
On Saturday Dec 2 James set out in the morning. They had reviewed maps in car and he thought Galice was 4 miles away (it was in fact about 15 miles away). He also appeared to think he could follow “the river” to Galice. The Rogue River does go to Galice but it’s not clear if they knew where they were in relation to the Rogue. This may explain why he dropped down into Windy Creek.
[Police report seemed to indicate the search helicopters found Kati Kim, leaving the local man out of the picture. I still believe the local pilot's account cited above, which nobody has challenged but seems only quoted on local news.]
Glenn I like that KimSat idea. In simplest form it would just be a threaded forum where those directly involved would post the solid data and known information online quickly. Remote helpers could then organize that data and have threaded discussions for speculation. During this SAR implied that that the number of calls as the case heated up was keeping them from the search but with a threaded forum you’d have people who could not help in other ways answering questions as they followed the story and collected relevant information, rejecting bogus tips (like the story that the family was seen in Gold Beach last week), etc. Police could then focus on the rescue itself.
Joe,
I believe that in a video interview, the local pilot, Rachor, mentioned that he spotted the tracks in snow on road. This led to another chopper responding to the area and finding the family and car. At that time, Kati, perhaps hearing the activity overhead, had left the car for some distance with the girls, waving the yellow umbrella with taped “S-O-S”.
I’ve been hopeful that the Kim story will wind up saving many lives as people become better aware of the dangers of winter travel in the mountains. Here’s some evidence that may be happening:
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2006/12/wilderness-survival-rule-of-threes_07.html
A few other details from today…
…San Jose Mercury News reported [Kim] may have been dead only hours, and no more than one day, by the time his body was discovered, according to deputy Grant Forman, who was a member of the Jackson County’s SWAT team who rappelled from a helicopter to recover the body.
Forman told the newspaper that it appeared that [Kim] slipped and fell on the slippery, mossy creek rocks.
From various reports: T.O.D. from autopsy either “had not” or “could not” be determined. Medical examiner not available to clarify.
[SAR] found an S-O-S note that said James’ family was desperate for help.
There was no food left in car when James left early Sat. morn.
Allen that would correspond with the hotspot sighting from an earlier flir mission. From what I understand when they investigated the hotspot location that is where they found multiple items left from James. He probably huddled at night at soon as daybreak he continued on his quest.
Joe…I am more than happy to participate in an effort regarding KimSAT…let’s do it! If we can make a difference for someone in the future then Jame’s quest will be continuing he will just be helping others.
Thanks Allen. It seemed at the news briefing today that the question of when he died was dealt with very superficially and I almost got the impression the coroner may have left this estimate off on purpose?
Here’s the report you quoted: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/16187541.htm
The slipping theory seems somewhat inconsistent with no injuries to the body but consistent with lying face up in the water as I think they said he was when found. At first they said face down.
Tragic, and I’m sorry to sound so clinical here…
Glenn - sounds neat. I’m away for the next few days but after that let’s start brainstorming how that would work. Here’s my contact info:
Joe Hunkins
jhunkins@gmail.com
POB 141
Talent, Oregon 97540
541-324-4800 (cell)
Hi Joe,
Yeah I think we will all be surprised when we find out when he died - the cold water and conditions are going to make that determination difficult in best conditions.
However given his body in the near state of constant shock I don’t think it would take very much trauma to get the body to just shut off. The shock of the cold water might have been enough to cause him to pass out or ultimately lead to heart failure.
Who knows…but it is said any way you slice it.
Joe, I noticed that too… the private citizen flying the private helicopter who discovered James’ footprints in the snow leading him to find Kati and the children was not given ANY recognition / appreciation at this afternoon’s press conference.
He deserves huge gratitude.
Kip,
agreed, and every single hour counted, as Kati and the kids (the 4 year old walking and the baby being carried, presumably) were walking away from the car as they were spotted. A day or even just half a day later they also would have succumbed to hypothermia.
Having children myself, I find this thought unbearable and also think that the local helicopter pilot should be officially honored for saving the lives of three people.
Anybody see a fork in the road where the Kims parked their car? It was mentioned at today’s news conference. Could it be a road leading down to Black Bar Lodge that may show on updated aerials but not on the older Google Earth images?
Kip, yes, please read my post #62 (or approximately #62).
And use these Google Earth coordinates that Joe posted (probably initially posted by Dan):
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=709281
This is one of the things that makes his death so heartbreakingly sad and unnecessary - they were 1.75 miles from the [closed for the season] Black Bar Lodge.
Their car was parked right where the access road to the Black Bar Lodge forks off a BLM road.
Kip I suggest you look at the link above for layoutscene. It will answer your question…on page5 or 6…that really gives you a good perspective on what he went through.
Another private citizen deserving huge praise and appreciation is the Edge Wireless engineer who found the Kim cell phone ping.
“It was just a hunch that we could help. And we followed up on the hunch,” said Eric Fuqua, 39, an engineer for Edge Wireless LLC who contacted authorities to offer his services in the search.
http://tinyurl.com/yncory (for CBS news article)
Ive got to say this: I am really frustrated that they werent found earlier. I am a 30 yr. old mom, aggie grad. Absolutely UNTRAINED in any search and rescue skills. When all this started I posted (along with numerous others)that I felt like they wouldnt take 42 but instead would take NF-23 (which on a map looks more direct) and when I followed the road by google earth I kept ending up on The exact road on which they were found NO MATTER HOW HARD I TRIED TO FOLLOW NF-23. Then when they found the girls I looked at google earth and follow a route I felt like I would have gone. I ended at Black bar falls (out of the drainage area). I posted a question about how far that was. (thinking they should start there and go UP twindy creek) I realize Im stating everything all the others were probably thinking, my point is IF I CAN FIGURE THIS OUT WHY DIDNT THEY???
And as far as the SAR teams- I appreciate EVERYTHING they did but it wasnt them that found the girls or James.
I second the the praise to the pilots that found them.
Kip and Glenn,
I think that the whole search effort deserves recognition. All members devoted their best to the search, rescue, then recovery. The process started with the two Edge Wireless individuals who used the Merlin cell tower pings to target the correct Bear Camp Road vicinity. Before this discovery, the potential search area was huge, also including the more obvious Hwy. 42 route. Then, the local heli pilot who spotted James’ tracks in the snow. (He had been doing his own fly-overs for 2 days.) The Kim family chopper crew who rescued the family… on through everyone else who desperately worked from Monday afternoon until mid-day Thursday in very extreme conditions to try and save the whole family. The deputy sheriff who fell 100′ over an embankment with his ATV on Tuesday was fortunate to only have an injured shoulder.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061207/NATION/612070467/1020
The time of death could not be determined, according to Lt. Gregg Hastings of the Oregon State Police. However, one of the SWAT team members on the scene told the Mercury News that it appeared from the condition of the body that Kim had not been dead long — perhaps hours, no more than a day.
Deputy Grant Forman, a member of Jackson County’s SWAT team, rappelled from a helicopter to help recover the body Wednesday afternoon, said it looked like Kim might have slipped and fallen on slippery, mossy rocks in the creek where his body was found.
—
He was found face-up in water no more than three feet deep. The creek was about 20 feet wide, with a sheer rock cliff on one side and huge boulders and a steep hillside on the other; Kim was nestled among rocks in the creek, Forman said. Even though he had left a trail of clothing for rescuers to follow, Kim was still wearing several layers of clothing, including his brown jacket, gray sweater, jeans and tennis shoes.
“He was walking the creek when he slipped and fell,” Foreman said. If not for that fall, “he may have made it out.”
I wish someone from SW Oregon would take pictures of the signs posted at the start of NF-23. The state says there are 3 clear warning signs. Kati Kim said it was “confusing”. What is it?
Thanks Joe, been reading for a few days. I think this story has hit home with a lot of people, and its not the usual stuff we read in the news, its something we can relate to and I took it personally that James didn’t make it. I’m sure SAR did their best. But when your sitting across the country, or in another country it is so frustrating to feel helpless. Perhaps there is a way that the internet and map analysts can help. I myself am a gis professional and maybe that is why this story and site has gripped me. I can only hope good things are to come.
The truth is the entire search and rescue operation was a dismal failure. With the exception of the private heli pilot flying on his own nickel who discovered James’ footprints in the snow, and the Edge Wireless engineer who discovered the Kim cellphone ping. Interestingly these 2 individuals have received almost no recognition and appreciation from the government press conference bureaucrats now familiar to many of us. They talk facelessly of ‘a helicopter found’ or ‘the cell phone ping discovery’.
Joeduck. He’s bin right on all along. Published his thoughts on the Web where Kims were likely located and he was correct. James could have been saved had “they” acted on the information Joe publicized.
Big kudos to joeduck.
Lastly James… in his trek from the car leaving those lifesaving footprints that led the chopper pilot back to Kati and the 2 children….. way to go James! Truly a hero.
Thoughts and prayers for James and the family.
Yes, I was very surprised as well to read that it was a private pilot who on his decided to look for the family and spotted Kati and the kids. Here is a SF Chronicle article that needs more visibility.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/07/PILOT.TMP
Also, I went over the maps and terrain over the last several days. The fact that they were exactly at the junction where the road leads to Black Bar Lodge just makes the whole situation so much harder to accept. But on a practical note, that also indicates that there was clearly no road SIGNS there pointing to the lodge or even the river. (Say as a fire escape route - like the signs/icons for coastal access, nuclear escape routes etc. that you see at other places).
View this to appreciate the maze -
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Grants+Pass,+OR&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF-8&om=1&z=14&ll=42.62796,-123.784504&spn=0.045153,0.10849&t=h&iwloc=addr
Try navigating that without signs even on a sunny day!
Hopefully, this saga will bring to light that the builders of these Logging Roads (built suprisingly by public funds in most cases) - that are a maze and a veritable hazard for everyone except the loggers harvesting our national forests - need to get serious about putting up appropriate and adequate signage (if nothing else).
If you read the pilot Rachor’s comments and view the maps, you will see how easy it is to get off on Bear Camp Road from NF-23 and enter the maze.
“It’s real easy to take a wrong turn where they did. A lot of people make that mistake.” ~ John Rachor, Helicopter Pilot.
Also, about the oft-repeated statement by the media and others about NF-23 being a bad choice etc., I was surprised when I looked up the Rand McNally atlas (whose maps I have admired and used extensively in my travels to over 30 states) and it shows NF-23 as a scenic route with the green dots. And with no winter warnings etc.
Of course, in the end, we have to take responsibility to make informed choices and develop/use our judgement to deal with the consequences as best as we can (which the Kims certainly did).
Clearly, there is an opportunity to make some improvements - including perhaps a web based, coordinated collection and evaluation of tips/ideas in these missing person cases - as we all have witnessed, sometimes devoted, impassioned amateurs can have insights that professionals may miss.
To that end, Joe Duck, deserves kudos for providing this service. Thanks Joe.
P.S. Keep getting connection refused error on clicking submit - guess this page is getting a lot of hits. If this get’s posted more than once, please delete the duplicates. Thanks.
dc - I’ve seen various pix of the warning signs but it would be nice to have pix matched to the map and a picture of the road junction where they left NF23 and headed down into Windy Creek Area.
Update: Two local news stations are confirming that it was a private pilot [I think his name is John Rachor and he lives in that area] who located Kati and Kids. I’m not clear why national news seems to be misreporting this interesting fact.
Joe and I are going to embark on a new journey to try to make something useful out of this tragedy. We are going to brainstorm how all of the resources, people and technology could be used to provide better input to a SAR operation. The process will need to be thorough and provide a streamlined but detailed information stream to the command center of the SAR.
In addition it should look to tap private citizens to help with their part. If anyone is interested in participating with us…just shout and drop us an email or leave your email and we will contact you.
We will begin probably early next week on formulating this.
BTW…one suggestion I saw on a thread…someone mentioned why don’t they use sky writing to send messages to the people stranded?…anybody have any thoughts on this?
The San Francisco Chronicle reported on the helicoptor pilot.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/12/07/MNGTMMQVKE1.DTL
Kip writes:
>the truth is the entire search and rescue operation
>was a dismal failure.
I agree. And this statement also is true for the “finding James Kim in the Big Windy Creek canyon” operation.
IMHO, once it was clear that James was heading down the Big Windy Creek canyon, the authorities in charge should have inserted several teams *along* Big Windy Creek canyon.
If a SWAT deputy can rappel down to *recover* the body, certainly small (3 person?) teams can rappel down to *rescue* a still-alive James.
How about one team coming from the Black Bar Lodge (no need to rappel, a Helicopter can land there) into the canyon EXIT, one team from the canyon ENTRANCE (no need to rappel either, a road goes there - this was the only insertion point actually used), and two teams being inserted mid-canyon, one team heading upstream and one team heading downstream?
This way (the length of the canyon being 6.5 miles), each of the 4 teams would have had to search only 1.6 miles of canyon, probably doable in a single day (day as in daylight).
Truth is, the authorities bungled it and they know it.
Well, sky writing might be a little too complicated. Why not use one of the signs the tow behing them? I’ve heard a lot of good ideas.
I really like the idea taking high resolution pictures and putting these pictures on the web so people can look from home. These are even more effective than a satellite picture. I remember seeing something about a company in the Bay Area that specializes in these type of photographs from planes (maybe in San Mateo or Palo Alto?). The SF Chronicle did a story on the company during the protests against the war and the Chronicle hired them so they could count how many protesters were really there.
Many of the people involved in the SAR were volunteers - and I’m sure most of them feel like crap right now. No need to add insult to injury by calling them incompetent. I think it’s good to bear in mind the reality of the situation, the inaccessible terrain, the lack of cell-phone service. A million things could have been done better. If they listened to the advice of every well-intentioned person, they’d be sidetracked further. SF chronicle did post a story about the private helicopter pilot. He did not, however, have the means to lift the Kims out. At that point the other helis came in. The entire undertaking was a group effort, and I think it’s in poor taste to discredit the hard work of the SAR volunteers. Just as they have said that the Kims did their best given the circumstances, so too should we give credit where credit is due to the hard work of the people in Oregon. They worked their butts off.
kh, nobody is denying that they worked their butts off.
But they probably worked their butts off in an inefficient way.
Look, his body was found from 1/2 a mile upstream from the canyon exit - if they had sent a team UP the canyon, not just DOWN the canyon, they would have found him (dead or alive) much earlier.
As far as I understand, the team that *did* find him was going DOWN the canyon, as every team was, and that’s the big bungle here.
Of note regarding cell coverage. When I was up there last Monday I checked many times going up 23 and had OK coverage to just blow the BC cutt off… I did not check it from the cutoff north up 34-8-36 but I suspect it would have been spotty (but would have worked). I talked to some guys on a skidder at about NF-2411 and they also had coverage.
They attempted to send people up the Big Windy Creek Canyon - it was too steep. James was found at a point where there was very little he could have done to have proceeded down farther.
Some of us are seriously underestimating this terrain. When they say that James was superhuman to reach the point he did, they aren’t exaggerating. The Big Windy creek runs down a very narrow and steep walled canyon - according to SAR personnel, it rarely has a bank to walk down meaning the slopes which are 100% grade or steeper (45+ degrees) are the only place to walk. The slopes of the canyon are too steep in many cases to climb up. This isn’t mentioning the underbrush, boulders and down trees. I’ll reiterate something I said earlier, if it’s too steep to have had timber cut, (and there is a large area with no cut trees) it is probably too steep for people to traverse safely.
SAR is something that fails more often than not. It is the nature of the business. These sorts of incidents, as Joe & Glenn are trying to do, are where improvements are made.
deleted at mapper’s request
Joe Dully.. The cell coverage is going to differ based on carrier. James had GSM service (I don’t know what carrier) to be roaming the Edge Wireless network. I know from my experience that US Cellular (my old employer) had some decent coverage up there - nothing super, but I’ve made calls from Bear Camp.
This is a rant of mine. The FCC is mandating that analog cell service be phased out by 2008. Most carriers who have analog service have started turning down their analog (AMPS) networks anyway and very few phones support AMPS anymore. This is a problem in areas like this because the AMPS signal is much more effective at reaching remote areas like this. It’s of no use for GPS or data transfer, but if someone needs to make a call, it worked. There are many remote areas where currently available analog cell service could save people’s lives but won’t be available after 2008. Oh well, not a rant that I’m going to win.
SFGATE has a lot of good coverage including this about how the story captivated so many around the world: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/07/MNGTMMR4IU1.DTL
Thanks Spencer… I did not know this. I am on US Cellular. I thought that any phone would just roll over to the next carrier. I used to carry an old analog back-up bag phone because it had better coverage that my flip phone but I guess that is not going to work in the future. I guess the best phone to have will depend on location.
Auri I just approved your comment and sorry for the delay - I think it was long enough it invoked a “moderate comment”. It’s now above.
Joe I sent an email to Mapper…will coordinate with you in a few days…sent you an email. If you didn’t get it let me know…
Thanks Jason - that is an amazing interview with John Rachor, the local pilot acting on his own who found Kati and Kids. He notes that 1) James’ footprints really did lead him to the car and 2) The side road is actually bigger than the main Bear Camp route at the point they left it, the side road has a gate but it was open, and indicating taking that turnoff is a common mistake.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/12/07/MNGTMMQVKE1.DTL
Thx Glenn - I will get back with you next week and feel free to move ahead on this with Mapper. I think a “robust” hosting environment will be needed for the project if lives depend on uptime. Also, I’m wondering how Amber Alerts and other missing person data is currently handled. One area where I was very underwhelmed were the websites for the agencies. They posted information infrequently and insufficiently. I know from some of my own past projects that ‘turf’ issues often get in the way of expediting things and I think online environments can help fix that.
While SF Chronicle deserves credit for it’s coverage and for posting the story about John Rachor (the helicopter pilot) who spotted the family, I